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Talk:Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928)
2099: Manifest Destiny I would have added more, but I want to get my facts straight first. Most notably, I need the info from 2099 Manifest Destiny (which wraps up the whole 2099 series after it came to an end). I'm pretty sure the sequence of events is like so: last issues of Doom 2099, all of Fantastic Four 2099, all of 2099 World of Tomorrow: * the phalanx invade Earth, melting part of the polar ice caps. At the same time the Atlanteans (lead by Roman) invade the partially flooded surface world. * Both invasions are repelled by Doom and the FF. Latveria's population is killed by a Necrotoxin. (At some point Doom 2099 returns to 1996 to try and prevent this by making his people immuse to the toxin before anyone else even knows it exists.) The rest of the world is left to rebuild. In Manifest Destiny: Captain America (Steve Rogers) is found frozen in ice (again), and is given another item the found; Mjolnir. Cap takes on teh powers of Thor. I forget who, but someone puts a spatial barrirer around Earth. Eventually the heroes decide to do something about it, and fly out to space to destroy it. Cp is sent hurling into space, but first throws the hammer to Miguel. With the powers of thor and the barrier removed, Miguel leads the united Earth into a new golden age lasting another 1000 years. (again, I forget if the power of Thor keeps Miguel alive that long, or if the golden age itself lasts 1000 years, with Miguel's death going unmentioned.) Since this is weird by any stretch of the imagination, I'm looking for confirmation from someone who can find or remember 2099 Manifest Destiny. Added Spider-Sense He has a version of the Spider-Sense in Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions so I added it as a power. --Rnnlmb 19:20, February 2, 2011 (UTC) Shattered Dimensions How is this the Spider-man from Shattered Dimensions? His Kron Stone is Venom 2099. Isn't the one from the game Miguel O'Hara Earth-TRN129, or am I missing something? william slattery ( Talk) 03:05, January 3, 2013 (UTC) Split page The Miguel O'Hara currently appearing in the Marvel Universe cannot be the same one who appeared in the 2099 universe up until its end. When this version of Miguel first appeared in Superior Spider-Man, Tyler Stone was in charge of Alchemax. During Spider-Verse, it was confirmed that Miguel had already met Strange 2099 and Venom 2099. In the original series, however, Tyler Stone was never in charge of Alchemax again after Venom 2099's debut. Tyler was in a coma after being shot by Conchata during Venom's story arc. After that, he was in a hoverchair and Miguel remained in charge of Alchemax until New York flooded, Alchemax was abandoned, and Tyler was killed by Atlanteans. Therefore, Spider-Verse Miguel's 2099 timeline was incompatible with Original 2099 Miguel's timeline even prior to the time-flux in that sent him back in time. The original 2099 timeline through 2099 Manifest Destiny should remain on Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928), while the new adventures of Miguel in Superior, SM2099 Vol 2 and Spider-Verse should be treated as an alternate version on a separate page. Monolith616 (talk) 01:06, February 22, 2015 (UTC) : He's stated to be the Miguel O'Hara from Earth-982, and retcons happen all the time in comics. Look at what Venom: Dark Origin did to Eddie Brock. Arawn 999 (talk) 02:26, February 22, 2015 (UTC) ::Then what format would you suggest for this page, and the two conflicting sagas? :::(1) Draft the original 2099 series all the way up through 2099 Manifest Destiny, then start a new history section "At an unknown point in time earlier, Miguel's history diverged when he went back to the early 21st century"? :::(2) Pick some inherently inaccurate point in the original 2099 story, say Miguel went back in time then, then write "At an undetermined point, Miguel returned to 2099 for the rest of these original 2099 adventures"? :::(3) Reduce all of the original 2099 history to a footnote that no longer happened, like the Five Years Later future for LoSH, and write the history section without even acknowledging the 2099 Manifest Destiny future anymore? Monolith616 (talk) 10:31, February 22, 2015 (UTC) ::: For now I'd suggest making a note of the discrepancy in the Trivia section. Arawn 999 (talk) 11:48, February 22, 2015 (UTC) :::: That doesn't answer the question of how to format the article. Write up the original history then add the Superior+ adventures at the end as an alternate path, or try to stick them in the middle somewhere? Monolith616 (talk) 17:42, February 22, 2015 (UTC) In today, Miguel is referred to as the Spider-Man of "Earth-616, circa 2099". So the Superior and Spider-Verse era Miguel O'Hara is no longer the Spider-Man 2099 of Earth-928. Renewing request to split the page.Monolith616 (talk) 18:24, February 25, 2015 (UTC) :Even if it was assured by Dan Slott, it can't be. Every reality can be the future of Earth-616. Earth-14412, Earth-TRN421, Earth-81551, and so on are as much of a future of Earth-616 as Earth-928. Every reality taking place in the future has been given a reality designation, because Earth-616 can end up being any of them. ::--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 19:02, February 25, 2015 (UTC) :: Someone asked about Marvel 2099 in #14's fan letter section, and it was confirmed that Earth-982 is the same universe as Earth-616, just in the year 2099. Arawn 999 (talk) 21:24, February 25, 2015 (UTC) :::We also have to take into consideration that the Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 series is currently being written by Peter David, the co-creator of both the character and the 2099-universe, who was also main writer for the majority of Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1, and is currently also the writer of the upcoming Secret Wars 2099 Vol 1. If you've read stuff written by David, you would know that he has a good record of taking into account the continuity of both his and others' works, as well as making use of both popular and obscure characters, that both he and others has created in the past. In , T.O.T.E.M. makes an appearance, which were an organization that first appeared in and its following tie-in issues, which were written by David. The Miguel O'Hara that appeared in those issues was the mainstream 2099-version that David created, as well as the guest appearances in other comics that Miguel appeared in, that were also written by David. Unless proven otherwise in future issues, I think it's safe to assume that David is intending to fit this Miguel into the past works that he has written, as well as the eventual endgame of both Miguel and the 2099-universe as shown in (even though David didn't write that one). :::KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 21:47, February 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::Personally, I reach the opposite conclusion. I think PAD is writing Miguel as if the original ending of the 2099-universe never happened. The last two issues of Spider-Man 2099, World of Tomorrow, and Manifest Destiny only came about because of internal disputes at Marvel that led PAD to resign. The Phalanx, the flooding of New York, the Savage Land...those weren't his. And like I said earlier, it's not like you can wedge the Superior adventures in-between scenes of the old timeline -- Tyler Stone died in the original timeline before ever taking back Alchemax after Venom's debut. I think PAD is writing Spider-Man 2099 as if the events that led to his departure never happened, and the series was allowed to continue. Similar to the Deboot Legion from DC Comics. ::::But that's my opinion, which is neither here nor there. What are the facts? Well, we've got an in-universe statement that Miguel's from the future of Earth-616. We've got an editorial statement from the letters page repeating that point. We've got two conflicting 2099-timelines unless we split them. The only thing opposing a split is a wiki policy, rightly based on how the Marvel Universe used to work when it comes to timelines: There's no set future, and there are an infinite number of possible timelines. Well, not anymore. Time is broken. There are less than two dozen timelines in existence. The old order of the Marvel Universe explicitly got curb-stomped and left to die on the side of the road today. The old order changeth, and rules based on how the Marvel Universe used to work shouldn't be considered so dependable anymore. Monolith616 (talk) 23:01, February 25, 2015 (UTC) ::::I also agree that the page should be split, being that there is precedence for divergent Miguel O'Hara's out there as well as other editorial standpoints on similar characters who have recently time travelled. Frankly, the 928-Spider-Man 2099 has been an editorial nightmare with people adding non-cannon stuff like appearances from video games (Whoever added the Shattered Dimension stuff to the page needs to really do better research). I don't have a full working knowledge of 2099 continuity, but from what I can determine from my sources is that the original 2099 line has a beginning middle and end. Peter David being a writer or not is notwithstanding, to simply state "well he wrote the original Spider-Man 2099" is not a valid justification. Let's be honest and it all boils down to the fact that people want to make the Spider-Man 2099 featured in recent publications to be the original one that Peter David created. While that's a nice little pipe dream people are entertaining, I'm going to have to side with Monolith that based on what we know and what has been published that seems like a huge impossibility. Monolith pointed out a number of specific facts why that counter the established Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 and characters not being in the right place or condition based on those facts. Yes, Dan Slott and the other Spider-Verse team kept referencing Earth-928, but also Spider-Verse (not to mention countless other instances) universe designations have been incorrect, miscategorized, or just down right wrong. The final authority on these things is the Marvel Handbooks. That said, why should the Spider-Man 2099 featured in Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 & the Spider-Verse cross-over be considered different from the Earth-928 version? * In Exiles Vol 1, the Exiles follow Proteus to Earth-928. In the original Earth-928 the New Universe character Justice is brought to 2099. In the Exiles story it's still Justice but he is possessed by Proteus. This created a divergent reality separate from the Earth-928 reality because not only did this happen in the past of 928, the Exiles caused a number of changes to that reality (IE: Spider-Man's identity being revealed to the Public Eye) * Precedence set by All-New X-Men: It is the Wiki's editorial standpoint that -- until otherwise clarified -- the events of the "All-New" original X-Men are happening to a group from an alternate reality instead of past versions of the 616 original X-Men. :::: Citing these two examples I think that an editorial policy should be set in that if a long running character is taken out of a some point of their past (meaning a point in their past publication history, or relative to the character's chronology) they should be considered a divergent version of the original established character until two things can be satisfied: :::::(a) The character is returned to their own timeline and it can be conclusively determined that their trip through time will have no impact on what their established fate going forward should be. :::::(b) Or Upcoming Marvel Handbooks clarify that this is the same character from the same universe and (hopefully) explains the continuity glitches. :::: Applying this to Spider-Man 2099, (a) Ignoring the continuity errors (Tyler Stone's condition/status as CEO of Alchemax), Spider-Man's knowledge of Venom and Strange 2099) we cannot definitively state that this Spider-Man 2099 will return to Earth-928. In fact even at the end of Spider-Verse he has not returned to his proper era, but an "Imperfect 2099". It's been previously established (in the Exiles) that past attempts at time travel to the core 2099 universe creates a divergent reality. This could be attributed to the fact that the core 2099 series has a beginning, middle and end, and not a whole lot of wiggle room for plucking characters out of an earlier point in time in that universe. Also, the regular Marvel standard for characters from the past (or a past relative to the established history of the character) who are pulled forward to the future, the only time this appears to not create a divergent reality is if they are returned to the past with no knowledge of what they observed in the future. The two points I can provide are two X-Men examples, in both Excalibur XX Crossing Special and Unlimited Access the original team of X-Men were pulled forward to the future. Their memories of the future were wiped when they were returned to the past. The key point of not creating a divergence is having no memory of the future it appears, or if key events are changed. Case in point, in the Exiles, the divergence happened when Proteus entered that universe, and further divergences happened when Miguel's identity was revealed to the public. Likewise, the Miguel most recently featured in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 was pulled from a point in time prior to later events in the core 2099 universe. Also Miguel was actively trying to change the future by maneuvering Alchemax in the past. On top of that, all the activities in "928" during Spider-Verse was somewhat disruptive, in fact Tyler Stone benefitted from that event in a way that has yet to see fruition in the current story line. Using the Exiles as the example, when reality jumpers start affecting the destined path of the reality, it creates a divergence. You could say that the moment that Spider-Man 2099 was placed in the modern age (and the Superior Spider-Man planted in 2099) it created a divergence. While it *may* have originally been Earth-928, the moment that incursion happened, it diverged into a new reality. :::: Applying point (b), initially in All-New X-Men in all intents and purposes it looked like these were the original 616 X-Men from the past. However as the series continued and the original team stayed in the present longer and did more things and interacted with more characters it became apparent that their being brought to the present created a divergent reality. I would argue that going forward, that Spider-Man 2099 has also pushed beyond the reasonable threshold to still be considered the 928 version as opposed to a divergent. Unless there is some magical fix that puts Miguel back to his proper place in time with no memory of anything he's done there is no way he could go back to 2099 AD and not take what he learned and change the course of how things went in that reality the first time around. Nausiated (talk) 17:28, March 20, 2015 (UTC) ::::: The part about Spider-Verse's universe designations being "incorrect, miscategorized, or just down right wrong" is due to Slott stating that "unless mentioned in actual stories, designations in wiki entries and handbooks don't count." The editors partially rebuked that by saying that the Marvel Handbooks are canon where not contradicted by the material in-comic. The editorial FAQ at the end of Amazing Spider-Man Vol 3 14 further states that Earth-928 is the same universe as Earth-616, which I'm guessing muddies the water even further. Arawn 999 (talk) 18:01, March 20, 2015 (UTC) :::::: I can't even say if it helps or hurts to mention this, but I recently re-read , which introduced the idea of Seven Prime Timelines for Earth-616, each an equally correct version of the future. One of the seven timelines was 2099, as seen by Doom 2099 of the Chronos Corps. That could be how the reality we recognize as Earth-928 could be the future of Earth-616 as well. Miguel's future could be the Earth-616 2099 Future (1 of 7 confirmed futures for 616 as told by Kang and Immortus). Monolith616 (talk) 18:19, March 20, 2015 (UTC) :::::: Even if we do split the pages, what universe designation are we going to give to the Spider-Man 2099 that appears in Superior Spider-Man and Spider-Verse? We can't just name it Miguel O'Hara (Earth-616) cause that future hasn't happened yet in the main universe. Also, the Miguel O'Hara is referred to as the Spider-Man 2099 from Earth-928. Take a look at Max Borne, he was killed by Chameleon 2211 in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Vol 1 10 and then later in Spider-Verse, he was later recruited into the Spider-Verse even though he was killed and we still consider him to be the Spider-Man 2211 from Earth-9500. Retcons can happen.Pokemonmewtwos (talk) 08:08, March 23, 2015 (ET) ::::::: Some guy being alive when we previously thought he was dead is a bit different than wiping out an entire established timeline to replace it with another. As for the designation, easy: Miguel O'Hara (Earth-616 2099). Monolith616 (talk) 12:27, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::: I think we should wait until the Imperfect 2099 storyline is over and see the results.Pokemonmewtwos (talk) 09:08, March 23, 2015 (ET) ::::::::In Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2's Spider-Verse tie-in issues, Earth-928 designation did mentioned. That means writer Peter David considers it to be the same Spidey 2099 from his old series.--Primestar3 (talk) 15:01, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::In which issue of Uncanny Avengers are these "Seven Prime Timelines for Earth-616" mentioned? The concept makes sense with certain interpretation. The interpretation could be that Earth-616 will evolve to mirror any of those seven realities, but the fact that eight realities "are" the same doesn't make much sense. If this page had to be split, it would make more sense to give it a TRN than use the "Earth-616 2099" "designation." ::::::::::--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 16:35, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::::It comes up several times throughout UA #4-22. I think the first oblique mention is in the flash-forward where they find the corpse of Immortus. Immortus's hologram lays out the details to Captain America in and Kang confirms some of it in . In , Kang recruits allies from seven different collapsing timelines, implied to be the Seven Prime. There are probably more references during the story arc, but those are the ones I recall off the top of my head. Monolith616 (talk) 17:08, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::We can't make a TRN just like that. Just because some material from new Spider-Man 2099 condradicts with older material doesn't mean it's a compeletely new universe. Continuity issues and retcons can happen all the time. Also giving a TRN for new Spidey 2099 is a complete misinformation because as I said before, Earth-928 designation mentioned in Spider-Man 2099's Spider-Verse tie-ins.--Primestar3 (talk) 17:10, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::::::The tie-ins say Earth-928 but, as mentioned above, the main series and the main writer of the event say Earth-616. Monolith616 (talk) 17:08, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Primestar3: I'm mentioning it as an alternative if we had to separate this page from Earth-928. ::::::::::::::Monolith616: Even if Slott stated it was Earth-616, the Marvel Multiverse is regulated by a set of unwritten rules. A future reality can't be Earth-616 even if it's said to be by a writer. As an example, Al Ewing stated that the Ultron-ruled future that was seen in Avengers / will be explored in Avengers: Ultron Forever is Earth-616 just because otherwise it would lose drama. The main writer of the book featuring this character stated it's Earth-928, and it can't be Earth-616. ::::::::::::::::--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 17:24, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::I think it's better to not split up this page. What if some Handbook confirms that they are same and explains continuity errors while we already made the page?--Primestar3 (talk) 17:38, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::::: I'll quote the FAQ at the end of Amazing Spider-Man Vol 3 14: ::::::::::::::::: Dr. Joshua M.: "I've come to the conclusion that 2099 Spider-Man is from the future AND a different Earth, is that right? Sometimes some text would contradict that it's a separate world so I wasn't sure." ::::::::::::::::: Nick (the guy who answers the FAQ's): "2099's future is in fact the 616. I think we may have messed that up somewhere." ::::::::::::::: So... it outright states that the universe Spider-Man 2099 is set in (Earth-928) is the same universe as Earth-616 but in the year 2099, and states that giving them separate designations in the first place was a mistake. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:40, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::But the creator of the Spider-Man 2099 along with 2099 timeline says it's an alt. universe.--Primestar3 (talk) 17:51, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::: My understanding of it is that a lot of Marvel's alternate universes operate on the theory of branching timelines. Earth-982 is a timeline where Peter stayed married to MJ and got their daughter back from Norman Osborn. This is supported by Mayday having once travelled back in time (in Spider-Girl Vol 1 10 and Spider-Girl Vol 1 11) and met Earth-616 Peter, an event she references when trying to convince him to join the Spider-Army. Earth-928 is a timeline where Alchemax takes over the world and Miguel O'Hara becomes the new Spider-Man. However, what's unique is that events in Earth-616 have repercussions in 2099, hence why Miguel travelled back in time in the Superior series, whereas that isn't the case with other offshoot alt. universes. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:57, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::::But isn't Miguel tried to change the future on 616? That means alternate universes/timelines in Marvel Multiverse. (I haven't read Spider-Man 2099 vol 2 except Spider-Verse tie-in issues.)--Primestar3 (talk) 18:06, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :So, as has been pointed out several times, (1) Superior Miguel's future has been officially referred to as Earth-928 and the future of Earth-616. (2) Superior Miguel's future doesn't synch up perfectly with the original 2099 timeline: some say that's proof its a separate timeline, some say its just a retcon / continuity error. (3) Even if Superior Miguel's future has diverged from Earth-928, the Marvel rules of timelines prevent it from being the unchallenged future of Earth-616. But, the Marvel rules of timelines are in flux considering the Seven Prime Timelines idea, Miguel trying to change his future from the "past" of Earth-616, and...well, everything Hickman's doing. :Did I leave anything major out? :So, what do we need to resolve this? What would anyone need to see to make them change their minds, or come down undeniably on one side? Monolith616 (talk) 18:08, March 23, 2015 (UTC) ::Designations are actually important to M. Multiverse. We can't ignore them. Even if things like Age of Ultron and Incursions things.(Is AOU really important to Multiverse? It only transported some dude from a universe to another universe.)--Primestar3 (talk) 18:19, March 23, 2015 (UTC) :::Age of Ultron caused a major rip in the time space-continuum which transported Galactus to the Ultimate Universe, Angela to the Marvel Universe, and caused the deaths of the Iron Man, Hank Pym, Wasp, Captain America and Thor from different universes. :::And neither Age of Ultron nor the Incursions have ignored reality designations or done anything counterproductive. ::::--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:32, March 23, 2015 (UTC) This Needs to be Resolved Okay, here we are over a year later and wouldn't you know it: Nothing has been resolved. The current Spider-Man 2099 series continues on without acknowledging any of the discrepancies between the original Spider-Man 2099 series from the 90s and the current one. They have all been referenced above, no need to belabor the points already made. Another point I should also make, and it's not discussed here, is that of the return of Punisher 2099. In the original 2099 run he became an agent of SHIELD under Doom's administration. He later *dies* at the end of his series. The current 2099 run shows him alive and well and very much not a SHIELD agent, and still a vigilante from the law. The more Marvel keeps doing 2099 call backs, the more it's becoming obvious that everything *after* Peter David's original run is being ignored. So we can finally put this to bed, I propose we do break up ALL 2099 profiles where characters are affected by these differences. I recommend we treat this in the exact same way we have treated the All-New X-Men, only in the opposite order. (1) We accent everything prior to the flooding of Nueva York in 2099 by the Atlanteans and everything starting with Miguel's appearance in Superior Spider-Man as Earth-928 cannon. Because it seems that the flooding of New York is the catalyst point where things take a deviation. (2) From the flood onto Manifest Destiny is an "alternate" 2099 that has yet to have a reality designation. It should be assigned a TRN. (Like I said, like All-New X-Men, but the reverse, because you can divorce that post PAD stuff from the rest without disrupting anything.) (3) We also apply a TRN to the "Dystopian 2099" that Miguel visits later one where the new Venture comes from. It's clearly an alternate 2099 since the proper 2099 universe gets restored eventually thereafter. Can we get a vote please. Yea or Nay? If you're going to vote NAY, please provide a detailed explanation on what YOU think is a better solution to this problem. Thanks Nausiated (talk) 20:33, August 30, 2016 (UTC) :I just wanna say that Maestro's reality doesn't need a TRN while the current 2099 does. The current 2099 is a divergent timeline from the original and from the flooded timeline.--MysteryScooby (talk) 18:47, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :I'm a Yea, generally, although I am confused by the current status of the 2099 reality. I haven't gone back to check, but I feel like Miguel's 2099 has altered multiple times since he came back in time. Do we think "Earth-928" is in flux, like a present-future version of the past-present effect Earth-616 suffered during the AoA, or are there multiple TRN futures in play? Monolith616 (talk) 02:29, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :I think that Marvel needs to explain what they're doing with ALL 2099 stuff (comics and videogames like Shattered Dimensions and Edge of Time), so I am Yea; I also agree with MysteryScooby: there are four different timelines, and I think there is a possibility that the current 2099 (Sinister Six) may be Earth-23291, the 2099 seen in Secret Wars 2099 (in the current 2099 there is also a version of Harry Mendez). We also need to know who is the new CEO of Alchemax in the current 2099.... I think that he may be Miguel Stone, since this 2099's Tyler Stone leads the Fist on Prime Earth.. Duellante magic (talk) 07:22, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :And about Punisher 2099 question, Earth-928 Punisher died in Contest of Champions (I think he was the same who appeared in the previous run of Spider-Man 2099 during the Spider-Verse event) and the new current Punisher confirms that the new 2099 is compleatly different than Miguel's 2099: in the new timeline, Gallows' parents were not killed, so he didn't became the Punisher and he continued his work as a Public Eye agent. Duellante magic (talk) 07:33, August 31, 2016 (UTC) ::: To be clear we need to clarify which version of the Punisher 2099 we're talking about here. The first incarnation of him, from the 90s, was depicted as dying in . This was in the original timeline which includes the flood and other incidents that have been ignored in the recent run of Spider-Man 2099 stories. There is also one that appeared in what we're considering an the "alt" 2099 post Superior Spider-Man who appeared in , who is alive and none of the late "original" 2099 changes are present (being an agent of Doom's SHIELD, and also very not-dead). I think there are three or four we can identify in this mess: The "original" Jake Gallows from the original timeline. The one seen in Spider-Verse, which may or may not be the same one seen in Contest of Champions. There's nothing that can confirm or deny it at this time. Then there is the one who has appeared in recent issues of Spider-Man 2099 that is still a loyal Public Eye member. ::: As for the other 2099 stuff, video games are not cannon so we can just outright ignore Shattered Dimensions and Edge of Time, they do not tie into Earth-928 in the slightest other than the fact that they are similar. I think this new 2099 being the same one as seen in Secret Wars makes sense but we need more evidence to confirm this. It seems like a good theory to start on since a lot of stuff touched on in Secret Wars is popping up in Marvel titles (Regent appearing in Amazing Spider-Man is a great example). I haven't read the last issue or two of the new series but from the cover where Captain America 2099 is crucified or whatever... It looks like she is known by people in that reality. It certainly looks it, but this still needs to be confirmed or denied. ::: Nausiated (talk) 14:04, August 31, 2016 (UTC) ::You're a bit mixed up on point #3... ::The "Dystopian 2099" that first appeared in absolutely needs a TRN, but it's not the 2099 that Venture came from in , as that was noted to still be Earth-9200 as seen in - . -- Annabell (talk) 08:07, August 31, 2016 (UTC) ::: Has it been positively identified? Unfortunately my reading of Spider-Man 2099 stuff skipped over Volume 2 presently (I need to correct that quick!). So far as I can recall, I don't think they ever explained who was responsible for turning the Dystopia into what it is was specifically identified in past stories prior to that. However, can we confirm that it's Earth-9200? I bring this up because that version of the Maestro met Spider-Man 2099 in , is there some recognizance when they bump into each other in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2? Also another thing to point out is that the Maestro actually dies at the end of when he is sent back in time and blown up in the gamma bomb test that created the Hulk. His spirit actually continues to exist on Earth-616 in - and was last seen in the Destroyer armor when the Hulk buried it in a rockslide. ::: Also when you compare it to the Sliding Timescale the math is a little off. Per Future Imperfect, the Maestro's future happened roughly 100 years in the future from that "present". FI was published in 1992, putting it in year 8 in the Marvel Universe. At the time it was published that would have made it 2092. However the timescale continued to slide forward. We're now in year 14, therefor the events of 1992 slide forward by sixteen years by real world time. So in "real time" the "present day" Hulk that first battled the Meastro in FI would have slid forward on the timescale to the year 2008. 100 years from 2008 is 2108. This implication is going to slide forward with each four year cycle of the Timescale. ::: Taking that into account it creates some interesting implications. ::: If the original Future Imperfect either happened before the year 2099 (if you go by the original publication date) it creates some implications here. Namely, if Spider-Man 2099 did appear in Earth-9200, but in the year 2099, it would have been AFTER the Hulk of Earth-616 sent Maestro back in time where he was blown up in the first gamma bomb test that create the Hulk to begin with. If you accept the Sliding Timescale math, it overshoots the year 2099 by nine years. (To clarify, the encounter between Spider-Man 2099 and Maestro in Captain Marvel has been identified in the Handbooks as taking place on Earth-9200 but before the events of Future Imperfect). ::: What neither of these scenarios explain is how the Maestro went from a disembodied spirit to having his body back. The Destroyer armor has been seen since Incredible Hulk #461 with no apparent trace of the Maestro still being inside the armor, but there's no explanation as to where his spirit went or how and if his body somehow reincorporated in his proper timeline. ::: The other alternative is that all the stuff in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 happens BEFORE Future Imperfect (which is the official explanation for the Captain Marvel story and the later visit by the Exiles). As I said before, I haven't read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 yet, so I can't draw many comparisons between the two versions of Dystopia, but that would require some analysis. However, I wonder if this version of Dystopia might not be the one seen in Secret Wars (Earth-69413). Given my limited knowledge, it could be a considerable possibility as well. ::: Nausiated (talk) 14:04, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :I've read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 14 and I think that it's clear: this new 2099 doesn't need a TRN, because it's Earth-23291. Have you read this issue? Duellante magic (talk) 16:08, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :: I haven't read it yet. Can you run through some of the things in the story that would support your position? (Try not to spoil the story as best you can though). :: Nausiated (talk) 17:25, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :For avoid big spoilers about the plot, I can only say that some of the Avengers and Defenders members seen in Secret Wars 2099 make their apparence in this issue except for Iron Man/Sonny Frisco (that makes sense, because he is on Prime Earth with the Fist, as revealed in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 10) and Silver Surfer. And, in conclusion, this reality version of the Daredevil appeared to be Sam Fisk, who was the Daredevil in Marvel Knights 2099 saga. Duellante magic (talk) 17:45, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :: That sounds pretty convincing to me. I'll get to reading it when I get home today and check it out for myself and get back to you, but it sounds like you're onto something. :: Nausiated (talk) 17:55, August 31, 2016 (UTC) :::I've not yet got to my pull list today, but good to hear the reality in has been identified as something we've seen before. In terms of confirmation of Venture's reality, it's explained in that 2099 occurs in the Earth-9200 timeline before , so only Miguel recalls the previous meeting, since he's now time displaced and Maestro is not. -- Annabell (talk) 00:10, September 1, 2016 (UTC)